ATEM Macros

Thanks Tom, I only mention our discussion so people can read about the background to this app if they want to, and rather than re-answer questions about why only early firmware, since we've already gone over all that ground there was no point in having the same answers here too.  

I'll try over the next few weeks to release a couple of other modules that will be more help with other areas, and I give you my absolute promise that if BMD officially release the UDP protocol or even a fully featured cross-platform SDK, I'll port this to UDP and make it cross-platform as my top none-business activity.

Best Wishes

John

Thanks TDinGeorgia, I really do appreciate the feedback, so far 100% of commenters want OS X, so you are in good, albeit limit company.

I promise you MacOSX version is coming, and I promise you won't have to pay for a whole load of functionality beyond what this initial release offers.

I'm sorry I can't get my management to bring forward the roll-over to UDP until after several project milestones are met for a paying customer, but I'm working hard to get those done, so I can get on with the ATEM UDP Comms rollover, and thus make all our ATEM systems  OS / Firmware neutral.

Please suggest any other functionality that would be useful in terms of control and integration, for example, I've just built a TSL Tallyman gateway such that our video wall on my commercial project can get the tally and UMD names on RS422 mutli-drop  or over IP - TSL is a pretty common protocol for multi-viewers and pro monitors, useful to anyone here?

http://www.tsl.co.uk/download%5CTSL%20UMD%20Protocol.pdf

jamesbrown,

Thank you so much for taking the time to download my app & post a comment. Unfortunately I have not yet tested on a 2ME mixer, that will happen in the coming 4 weeks as we start our primary build. I'd love to hear about any problems you experience, as it SHOULD work just fine.

As for CasparCG, I'm very much on that, we have a full Caspar Controller with multiple renderer management, playlist control, etc.. etc.. That application will be launched in a CasparCG forum and is actually intended to drive Caspar users to ATEM in order to composite the outputs.

{probably need to zoom in order to read these images, they are full resolution PNGs}

It's still quite a way from being ready to go out there, in particular if you look at how I control the mixer functions of Caspar, it's way too basic and too much of a developer test harness
 

However I could quite easily supplement the ATEM Macros system wilth Lua commands for a renderer which effectively wrap the Caspar CG TCP/IP Protocol. You can see those commands at the end of my list here

If you can hang on a few weeks, I'll include the CasparCG control in the next version which will tie in X-Keys XK ranger of products.
 

Thanks again
 

John

Tom, why didn't you say so before?

The vast majority of my renderer experience is with Vizrt, who quite frankly make absolutely amazing systems, that I think if they don't do it, it can't be done. But Renderer and Matrix control systems are really "my thing",  

www.vizrt.com

That said, CasparCG is astonishingly good, and since you can get great performance with a GeForce card + Decklink Extreme and don't need Quadro, it meshes so perfectly with the ATEM range, and makes professional graphics workflows possible. I hadn't seen much discussion about it here so didn't think too many were using it.

Can I suggest you add another top level forum sub-group to cover CasparCG, if you want graphics automation, a number  of my colleagues are far more involved with the CasparCG side of our project, and we can help people who want to understand how best to use CasparCG with ATEM.

As for Echolab - send me the API and I'll add support. Who gives a f**k what BMD will support? If you've got an echolab mixer, and you envisage using for time to come into the future, you can't stop developing for it. I can help you if you like.

I'll add control of Caspar to our next release. And, of course make some video demos. Want anything else? AVID iNews playlist integration perhaps? Anything is possible (well depending on what protocols are public), lets use this forum to really understand how and what people want to integrate with.......

Cheers

John

PTZ as documented here:

http://www.wareever.be/users/waregco/ftp/Manuals/CCTV/Video%20transmissi...

Contains a lot of info, it's not a protocol we've already got, can you identify the parts you would prioritize with any level of detail.

VDCP, or I still call it BVW75 some people call it Sony P2, I think GVG have a derivative called AMP, and there are many many others. We certainly can add support for the core of all these protocols over either RS422 or IP. I'll look to add that in our July update.

I don't mind having lots of requests, in fact I want them, it's only possible for software to be built properly with a highly interactive relationship with "super-users". Super-Users I define as highly knowledgeable users who can rapidly assimilate new features and the implications of changes, and then help normal users understand the systems. 

I'd rather have a huge list of user feature requests that can become a roadmap prioritised by the ultimate end users, rather than wonder what people want from their systems.

Cheers for the pointers, our research process will begin on PTZ immediately, and I'll update you with decisions made.

Regards

John

Thomas,

Lua allows you to design you own GUIs using a plugin called IUP. I'll be adding a GPU accelerated User GUI builder in a future version.

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/

You just need to download and copy the IUP DLLs into your Just Macros directory. It doesn't stop there either, there are countless Lua plug-ins you can use to extend JustMacros.

If you read the document marked "Building custom Graphical User Interfaces" at the link below, you'll see the guidelines I wrote for another user about how you should design these IUP GUIs. You can see my super-basic GUI - (took me 10 minutes)  in the latest 2.3 version

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/

I'm like 2 weeks behind with my next version, which includes the "AUTOEXEC" and "CloseApplication" functions you will need to reaqlly make you app feel like it's totally yours.

In the most recent version available for download from my link, there are two macros labelled "ShowDialog_DONT_RUN_DIRECTLY" which builds and runs the GUI, and a "ShowDialogSync", which runs the other macro in the main application thread.

Suffice to say, this is just at the start of the GUI system, there is no reason you can't build a GUI that looks like the BMD version and works just as well, but with more features.

Take a look at the examples, if you need more help - give me a shout, and I'll do all I can to help you with your targets.

To all those wondering where the update I promised 2 weeks ago is, I'll try to push it up during the IBC lull in my other work. And I know it's hard work to use at the moment. If BMD ever let me concentrate on the system instead of hacking the API/SDK I'll really be able to release some good stuff, until then, JustMacros is a little bit of hard work to setup, but should be very reliable and stable once you've build decent scripts.

Regards

John

Thomas,

I also noted your post on this BMD thread (hate to post links away from Tom's forum - please come back after)

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=484&start=20

If there is sufficient call for this, it's a very easy job to add a VideoHub simulator to the Just Macros system (I use simulators for all my development, so it's mostly a drop-in). It would simple pretend to be a VideoHub of any size. You would assign macros to cross-points. So that when the Smart Control issued a Cross-point request, Just Macros would read that as a command to do something. I would expect you would simply set the Smart hub up to be routing to a single destination, and then each button press would correspond to a source. Thus one button press on a BMD panel could trigger one macro or JustMacros standard button function.

The problem would be the lights, but maybe workable, I haven't looked at Smart Control panel. It annoys me so much that BMD won't listen to me about router control systems, in fact I'm offended at what they offer, and when it comes to matrix routing, (especially lots of interconnect matrices), getting to know JustMacros now, will serve you well in the future (can't say any more than that at the moment).   

Let me know if you think there is large amount of demand for Smart Control input method, and I'll get it added to our roadmap.

Regards

John

Thomas,

I understand what you are saying, and I know many people of this forum and in the broadcast industry now feel that way.

I can only help by saying two things:

• In any big live TV studio / gallery environment, the production chain is stuffed full of PCs doing broadcast critical tasks. So it is pretty standard practice to run routing and control systems through PCs. I'm not saying you are wrong to want a small footprint solution, just that the generic processing and power vs cost argument, has already been had and won, PCs are well and truely part of the broadcast environment.

• We have talked a lot about making a 456 button panel out of 4x80 Xkeys, 1x68Xkeys+Joystick 1x68Xkeys+Jogwheel, 11 or 19 audio faders, a couple of HFX T-Bars, and a multi-touch touchscreen. Like Kaspar and others, it would be a self contained unit sitting on a desk with quite a small footprint. Inside would be a Mini-ATX PC with super fast <10 second boot SSD OS drive/configuration. Also with Decklink Card(s) (of some description). This would be far more like a traditional Grass valley surface (which I believe normally contains 2 PCs), and so able to be adapted easily by the TD. There is a lot of work to do get the software up to scratch, but we would probably contract an industrial designer Q1 2013 if we proceed, as we don't have those skills in house. We would need BMD to commit one way or the other on the 3rd party before making that kind of investment. I don't know if this would meet your PC less requirements? But will be much cheaper than the BMD options, with more buttons, and more functionality.

Always happy to help users using the FREE Just Macros, if you get stuck, post on one of the 3 threads, and I'll help all I can.

Regards

John

Yeah, That is a mistake, sorry about that, I'm using a 1ME at the moment, and so some 2ME items slipped by, I'm going to be releasing a new version as soon as I can, and I'll get this sorted for you asap.

Probably all upload by Monday. I'll certainly do my best.

Regards

John

Also worth considering Decimator Quad

http://www.decimator.com/Products/Decimator_Quad/Decimator_Quad.html

I really like, not just because it is an exciting red colour, not your usual Dull grey box. If you shop around you should be able to pickup for significantly less than a $1000(USD).

They also have am "MD" version with Audio Meters, UMD and Tally if you are looking to build a nice monitor stack.

http://www.decimator.com/Products/MD_Quad/MD_Quad.html

but.......I get the impression that BMD are going to do more with Multi-viewers, if they are smart and, know what they are doing (ok, maybe optimistic), they'll create plug-in modules for the Universal Video Hubs, although, until BMD start listening Decimator make great products, at good prices, with controls like, you might expect to find on a multi-viewer, for example UMDs that you can set to what you want (in versions after 2.7.2).

Sorry guys, I've personally only used the MD version which is a little more pricey and supports loads of HD formats, I didn't realize the older one without UMD and Tally was only SD, sorry if that was a mislead.

They are a nice colour though....

airpanos,

I think Liam already basically gave you the answer. and sadly that answer is No, you can't do a Quad with a TVS, as it has no Supersource, you can't do a quad with 1ME, as it only has 1DVE, and Macros is to automate the functions made available.

You could do what TDinGeorgia is doing, and feeding a external multi-viewer into your TVS, but you may have to hunt around to find an HDMI mutliviewer, I don't know of any, but am certain some must exist.

The best solution, in my opinion,  would be external renderer with a few HDMI input cards, and (VERY) careful motherboard selection. Or as Liam suggests, a VideoHub, a 2ME and your HDMI cameras connected to the video hub with HDMI->SDI convertors.

However, I'll throw this out there for a left-field, just using the TVS, solution.

If the TVS has 1 USKs and 2 DSKs, you could frame your camera shots so that the subject was where you wanted in in the multi-view, and then use a MASK on each keyer, to simulate a quad split by layering all your inputs. And, of course, JustMacros would help you set that up and return to normal with single button presses. Theoretically you could also do it using pattern keys, but I've not played with a TVS, and so am unsure of what is available.

Please let us know how you get on.

Regards

John

TDinGeorgia, airpanos,

For more information on a 3 key solution for a quad view, see below.

However I can't say it's a good way of doing it, as you will need to be in very close contact with your camera operators, as the framing up of what you are displaying will be tricky, you'll also need "somewhere else to go(e.g. a 5th camera)", as you will need time to re-position the cameras when cutting from quad view to full screen.

But for a laugh:

Using the background for the top left, USK1 for top right, DSK1 Bottom Right and DSK bottom Left, things would look like this:

Looks like:

Macros to instantly turn all this on and off can be found here:

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/SetupOf3KeyQuad.zip

Add 4 HDMI splitters to send full frame to both HDMI->SDI->QUAD and the ATEM TVS, thus be able to cut nicely between full frame and Quad, and Liam's solution is pretty much perfect and just a little more expensive than; ditching the ATEM  and doing this job entirely within a renderer, not as flexible for monitoring and operational reasons, but technically more capable.

I'm with you, if you can avoid the BMD ATEM mixer, I say "do it". 

A powerful PC will easily ingest 4 or 5 HDMI streams, mix it together with internally generated graphics, and spitting out a QSV encoded H.264 stream, a PC costing around $1000 + interface cards, could do that without breaking a sweat. But.....I'd be worried about using 5 BMD Intensity cards in a single machine, with the correct motherboard it should be possible, but careful research required before building a 5 HD-Stream HDMI box!!!!!. 

You should also always remember the software tools availabl,e will almostly certainly not meet your needs without you doing significant development work, this costs money too.

Liam's solution is "plug and play", and will allow professional production workflows, i.e. you could bring in a team of production people, and they would sit down, and be ready to go in about 10 minutes. Training people on bespoke systems and workflows costs money too..

I'd recommend factoring these things into your calculations, especially if it's a project that is expanding and becoming more professional.

Anyway, good luck to you with your project.

Cheers

John

Liam's solution is a no-brainer if you want an easy life. 

But........

If you are a developer, you shouldn't under-estimate the power of the latest generation of Intel CPUs.

Don't think laptop, think real-computer, with expansion slots. There should be no problem with 5 Intensity Pros PCIe cards in a single machine. Just make sure you get the correct motherboard, BMD suggest the limit for cards in a single machine is 8, and I've heard success stories of people doing that with 64 bit apps.

The Intel QSV encoder will encode HD much faster than real-time, even on a low-spec i5 you'll encode 1080i and still get  40fps encoded at 30Mb/s. The QSV, in my opinion, produces, by far and way, the best hardware based-H.264 results for the $.

Yesterday Intel talked about what is coming up in the Haswell core, or next generation (2013), they have added an additional pre-processor stage as well as support for 4K. 

The Intel Media SDK is perhaps well your investigation if you are looking to provide bespoke video solutions to customers, and you want to tweak the "standard practices" to save money. You'll only save the money with a compact and efficient solution, 5 laptops doesn't really provide that, in my opinon anyway. 

Cheers

John

CasparCG will get you close, but no cigar.......

I'd write (have written) systems that allows me to mix using the Windows 7 EVR with a custom presenter, that allows me to send the output of the EVR back out to HDSDI or to an encoder path. Eventually this will bleed into my Just Macros solution.

But... this is becoming a discussion for the Developer sub-forum,  I wouldn't use someone else's software with a custom built PC solution, if you are considering that, you have to go with Liam's hardware mixer solution.

And please beware the USB3 Laptop trap, not all USB3 on laptops is compatible with the USB3 Decklink stream you'll get from an Intensity Shuttle. You may think your USB3 solution is cheap, just to find you need to replace all your laptops.

I think you should start a new thread on the developer sub-forum, WHEN you choose to start to build a PC based mixer that could out-perform the ATEM range. I'll help you out all I can, but this thread is so far off where it started, I'm not going to respond again here. 

Good luck with your project.

John

James,

Thanks for the kind words. 

I find myself once again apologizing to those who have taken the time to play with these early versions of JustMacros. I've been just so snowed under for around the last 4 weeks, I just haven't had time to address the many issues raised, and build a new FREE ATEM JustMacros Build.

All I can do is assure everyone I am more committed than ever to developing this system, work is constantly ongoing. The core of the system is now in use in 6 (mostly replacing) of our other systems, and I remain confident I'll get a new ATEM build out again very soon - maybe new video too.

I want to re-state, as I've done elsewhere, every single comment I have received will be addressed in the next version or coming in the one immediately afterwards. I try to not to ignore any post on the topic of Macros, and this time next year I hope the system will be awesome (and will still be completely free).

On your specific issues:

1. No problem, Global key traps are being added for another purpose anyway, and I can make that available to you.
2. Just Macros is not "currently" a GUI system, I have had some success doing custom GUIs from within JustMacros using a Lua plugin called IUP. I wrote a 10 minute document and put it on the JustMacros landing page that might help you if you want to implement a GUI with a Timecode-readout. It's not the right solution though.... In terms of CasparCG, I'm only 25% of the way through putting the CasparCG into JustMacros, there are still lots of missing bits and bobs, but the vast majority of updates coming for CasparCG will be adding high-level management routines that will help with things like playlist / running-order / run-down management.

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/

HOWEVER.........

The next version will include the beginnings of a thread-safe, multi-window, multi-client, GUI sub-system being developed (and looking great). This will solve some needs for iOS controllers, and some of the other issues being raised by ATEM users. 

Other roadmap changes for anyone tracking what I am saying, across the different threads:

We've down-graded MIDI for two reasons, (1) there is a lot to it to properly implement all the functions, (2) it looks like BMD are planning a MIDI-through-USB (re: comments regarding firmware 3.4 shown at IBC), direct interface. I think this raises questions over whether they plan to do their version of ATEM macros via MIDI sequencing. If they do this in 3.4, I want to look at what they add to my mixer before I build complementary features.

CasparCG, Vizrt, Grass Valley, Snell, and general purpose RS422/232 and IP ( FTP / TFTP / Telnet / etc..) communications (in terms of new command integration) have had their priority increased.

My 2ME R&D is postponed also in favor of more established product integration (i.e. Grass Valley).

This is not to say in anyway I am stepping away from BMD, we are just reflecting the fact, we are limited by them, and they are in no way helpful, we need to keep the development moving forward, hopefully soon, BMD will make it clear where they are going with the SDK and new ATEM features.

Cheers again James, hope there is enough here to keep you interested, and as soon as I can, I'll update the system which should help you out on these two problems.

Regards

john

James,

I don't see CasparCG INFO data being too difficult to provide back to the Macros system, it won't be a problem. What's more tricky is making that information meaningful.

I wonder if you would spend a little time describing how you see your "perfect playlist system" working?? As much detail as possible.

My experience is that media playlists often come from special tags inserted in run-downs from external systems like AVID iNews or AP's ENPS.

However, with ATEM and CasparCG, I think the likelihood of users having these (or similar) external systems is low. Thus I'm adding a kind of of simplified multi-renderer playlist system to my CasparCG encapsulation. As I said in my previous post this is something that is being worked on right now, so if readers like you, can share a bit of detail about how they work, I'll do my best to try to facilitate those requirements in my implementation.

Cheers

John