ATEM Macros

57 posts / 0 new
Last post
JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
ATEM Macros

Hi everyone,

I've developed a Windows application that will allow you to record user activity within the Black Magic Design ATEM Control software or on the physical mixing surfaces, and then play that activity back. Users can also write their own scripts from scratch to do whatever they like. It's specifically designed to offer no functionality that BMD already offer, and thus not be "in-competition" with their app, just to supplement their functionality. It's hoped users can streamline their key / transition configurations by using this technique.

I'll be doing a phased release of more functionality over the coming months, but I give my personal & absolute guarantee never to take away functionality, or make something a chargeable feature that was previously freely available. Please keep an eye on the developer sub-forum for updates.

The scripting system used is called Lua. It is a widely used and long established scripting system for integrating user controllable scripts to applications. It's open-source and fully extendable allowing developers to write their own modules, and then just "requires()" them from within the ATEM scripts.

You can download the application from the link below. This includes a ZIP file containing the program, the standard Lua DLLs and a bunch of sample scripts (designed to show how to use commands, rather than showcase the functionality of the ATEM). I have also included a very short PDF document as a user guide / quick start guide.
http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/FreeJustMacrosPackage.zip

The entire Lua package, which includes many DLLs and sample scripts covering things you can do with Lua outside the scope of this app, is available from the project website.
http://www.lua.org/download.html

There is, of course, a drawback: you can only use this app on Windows and only with the Black Magic 2.7.2 (or earlier) firmware / software package. The reasons for this are technical and outside my control at this time. This limitation is being worked on, and development plans are in place to provide a solution. However this will take several months, and is also partly controlled by what Black Magic choose to release in upcoming  firmware packages. You can read a friendly debate between Tom and myself regarding whether it's worth making this software available over on the developer sub-forum. However, in the end, my company and my customer and I all agreed it was best to make something available:  even if people have reasons for not using it, that wouldn't out-weigh the potential benefits for people who are happy to use it in its current form.  

I would be very grateful for any comments and feedback that you may have, reporting problems with the software or offering suggestions for extra features that you would like to see.

Many thanks for your interest,

John

Offline

Location

Brighton,
United Kingdom
Joined: 23/04/2011
Posts: 966
Hi john Thanks for releasing

Hi john

Thanks for releasing this, i'm going to download and have a play with it over the Bank Holiday. 

I never intended to suggest that you should not release this. It is really great to see some serious 3rd party dev for the ATEM. It IS a shame that we need to downgrade firmware to use it but i hope that Blackmagic will come to there senses and release an updated SDK which enables you to develop for the current firmware. 

Thanks for all your efforts

Cheers
tom

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Thanks Tom, I only mention

Thanks Tom, I only mention our discussion so people can read about the background to this app if they want to, and rather than re-answer questions about why only early firmware, since we've already gone over all that ground there was no point in having the same answers here too.  

I'll try over the next few weeks to release a couple of other modules that will be more help with other areas, and I give you my absolute promise that if BMD officially release the UDP protocol or even a fully featured cross-platform SDK, I'll port this to UDP and make it cross-platform as my top none-business activity.

Best Wishes

John

Offline

Location

Marietta
United States
Joined: 23/05/2012
Posts: 93
I am completely OSX based and

I am completely OSX based and haven't even one Windows machine in the stable.  So that is the reason i have not jumped into downloading this program.  I am also not a big fan of downgrading firmware's... but that is more fear based, and not logic based.  Looking forward to iOS direct integration.  i would pay $$ for that.  Heck, i would pay for the enhanced OSX control of this switcher.  I have not opened your program, i would probably pay for it AS IS! 

TD

BMD 1ME ATEM BMD TVS BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle (2) HPX170 (3) PDW-F350
www.GunDogFilms.com

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Thanks TDinGeorgia, I really

Thanks TDinGeorgia, I really do appreciate the feedback, so far 100% of commenters want OS X, so you are in good, albeit limit company.

I promise you MacOSX version is coming, and I promise you won't have to pay for a whole load of functionality beyond what this initial release offers.

I'm sorry I can't get my management to bring forward the roll-over to UDP until after several project milestones are met for a paying customer, but I'm working hard to get those done, so I can get on with the ATEM UDP Comms rollover, and thus make all our ATEM systems  OS / Firmware neutral.

Please suggest any other functionality that would be useful in terms of control and integration, for example, I've just built a TSL Tallyman gateway such that our video wall on my commercial project can get the tally and UMD names on RS422 mutli-drop  or over IP - TSL is a pretty common protocol for multi-viewers and pro monitors, useful to anyone here?

http://www.tsl.co.uk/download%5CTSL%20UMD%20Protocol.pdf

Offline

Location

leverkusen
Germany
Joined: 11/01/2012
Posts: 116
Hi John, what a great

Hi John,

what a great application that you wrote! I downloaded it today and will give it a try on our ATEM 2ME.

Although you have already a big functionality, it would be absolutely awesome if you would include some control functionality for the free CG server/client Caspar CG. A lot of people here in the forum use this CG software for graphics and lower 3rds. It is completely open source and you can control it via network. There is a SDK available on their website:

http://www.casparcg.com/

If it is possible to create macros that control the ATEM and the Caspar CG server at once it would be heaven on earth. With just one keystroke you could load a lower 3rd into Caspar CG, switch a DSK on, fire the animated lower 3rd in Caspar, and deactivate the DSK after the lower 3rd has finished.

You could create playlists for Caspar CG to play some commercials one after another and finally switch back to your program. Endless possibilities.

I don't have enough coding skills to do this but your application is already so far that you just have to add the control for Caspar CG to make it work.

What do you think?

Regards

james

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
jamesbrown,   Thank you so

jamesbrown,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to download my app & post a comment. Unfortunately I have not yet tested on a 2ME mixer, that will happen in the coming 4 weeks as we start our primary build. I'd love to hear about any problems you experience, as it SHOULD work just fine.

As for CasparCG, I'm very much on that, we have a full Caspar Controller with multiple renderer management, playlist control, etc.. etc.. That application will be launched in a CasparCG forum and is actually intended to drive Caspar users to ATEM in order to composite the outputs.

{probably need to zoom in order to read these images, they are full resolution PNGs}

 

Screen shot of Caspar CG interface

It's still quite a way from being ready to go out there, in particular if you look at how I control the mixer functions of Caspar, it's way too basic and too much of a developer test harness
 

Mixer Part
 

However I could quite easily supplement the ATEM Macros system wilth Lua commands for a renderer which effectively wrap the Caspar CG TCP/IP Protocol. You can see those commands at the end of my list here

Just the Macros bit
 

If you can hang on a few weeks, I'll include the CasparCG control in the next version which will tie in X-Keys XK ranger of products.
 

Thanks again
 

John

Offline

Location

Brighton,
United Kingdom
Joined: 23/04/2011
Posts: 966
Wow i'm super excited about

Wow i'm super excited about that! I've been wanting to use Caspar since i first stumbled across their website, unfortunatly the provided interface of the example caspar clients is not usable in my situation. (specifically I need to be able to loop clips and create seamless playlists, ideally with countdown to the end of current clip and the end of playlist somewhere in the interface) 

Atem integration would be icing on a cake as far as i'm concerned (and actually not that useful to me as i'm still mainly using the Echolab product which won't be supported) 

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Tom, why didn't you say so

Tom, why didn't you say so before?

The vast majority of my renderer experience is with Vizrt, who quite frankly make absolutely amazing systems, that I think if they don't do it, it can't be done. But Renderer and Matrix control systems are really "my thing",  

www.vizrt.com

That said, CasparCG is astonishingly good, and since you can get great performance with a GeForce card + Decklink Extreme and don't need Quadro, it meshes so perfectly with the ATEM range, and makes professional graphics workflows possible. I hadn't seen much discussion about it here so didn't think too many were using it.

Can I suggest you add another top level forum sub-group to cover CasparCG, if you want graphics automation, a number  of my colleagues are far more involved with the CasparCG side of our project, and we can help people who want to understand how best to use CasparCG with ATEM.

As for Echolab - send me the API and I'll add support. Who gives a f**k what BMD will support? If you've got an echolab mixer, and you envisage using for time to come into the future, you can't stop developing for it. I can help you if you like.

I'll add control of Caspar to our next release. And, of course make some video demos. Want anything else? AVID iNews playlist integration perhaps? Anything is possible (well depending on what protocols are public), lets use this forum to really understand how and what people want to integrate with.......

Cheers

John

 

Offline

Location

Brighton,
United Kingdom
Joined: 23/04/2011
Posts: 966
Hi John I didn't mention

Hi John

I didn't mention Caspar before as I didn't want to flood you with feature requests, most developers i know get annoyed if everytime they mention something they are working on I jump on it and say it would be great if it did x y and z!

There are quite a few people in the live events world who would like to use caspar for playback as it is perhaps the only affordable solution for playout with key channels - unfortunately we are all of the opinion that the current user GUI client is not suitable for live events and have been hoping that they will update it soon to match the new functions of the 2.x version of caspar. 

 Other things that would please me would be Sony VISCA PTZ support (really basic preset recall would be fine for starters)
and RS422 deck control /  VDCP (is that the same protocol? i've never really understood this!) 

Unfortunately i don't have the Echolab API,  I'm not sure how much control is possible via IP? The control panel connects via 2x BNCs on the echolab switcher so i'm not sure if there is a route to 3rd party control? (there are some included tools for macro and remote control from PC - the Echolab Conductor software works) But really it would be a waste of your time developing special functions that probably only I would use! 

Adding a forum to talk about graphics systems is a good idea, I will try to get round to that today.

cheers
tom

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
PTZ as documented

PTZ as documented here:

http://www.wareever.be/users/waregco/ftp/Manuals/CCTV/Video%20transmissi...

Contains a lot of info, it's not a protocol we've already got, can you identify the parts you would prioritize with any level of detail.

VDCP, or I still call it BVW75 some people call it Sony P2, I think GVG have a derivative called AMP, and there are many many others. We certainly can add support for the core of all these protocols over either RS422 or IP. I'll look to add that in our July update.

I don't mind having lots of requests, in fact I want them, it's only possible for software to be built properly with a highly interactive relationship with "super-users". Super-Users I define as highly knowledgeable users who can rapidly assimilate new features and the implications of changes, and then help normal users understand the systems. 

I'd rather have a huge list of user feature requests that can become a roadmap prioritised by the ultimate end users, rather than wonder what people want from their systems.

Cheers for the pointers, our research process will begin on PTZ immediately, and I'll update you with decisions made.

Regards

John

Offline

Location

Brighton,
United Kingdom
Joined: 23/04/2011
Posts: 966
Hi John The Sony Protocol

Hi John

The Sony Protocol (it's really called visca)  as described on page 209 of that doc would be the most interesting to me, it's the one used by the low cost Sony PTZ heads such as the BRC300 and EVI-HD1, these are quite popular and whilst not really broadcast quality they provide a decent enough picture for live event use. 

http://www.chuktech.net/video.html has protocol information 

cheers
tom

thos-berlin's picture
Offline

Location

berlin
Germany
Joined: 19/06/2012
Posts: 238
Hi John, is there an

Hi John,

is there an customizable version for justmacros, that only displays given buttons with fixed macros for usage by an "simple operator".

Thomas  S e e w a l d - thos-berlin (amateur)

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Thomas,Lua allows you to

Thomas,

Lua allows you to design you own GUIs using a plugin called IUP. I'll be adding a GPU accelerated User GUI builder in a future version.

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/

You just need to download and copy the IUP DLLs into your Just Macros directory. It doesn't stop there either, there are countless Lua plug-ins you can use to extend JustMacros.

If you read the document marked "Building custom Graphical User Interfaces" at the link below, you'll see the guidelines I wrote for another user about how you should design these IUP GUIs. You can see my super-basic GUI - (took me 10 minutes)  in the latest 2.3 version

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/

I'm like 2 weeks behind with my next version, which includes the "AUTOEXEC" and "CloseApplication" functions you will need to reaqlly make you app feel like it's totally yours.

In the most recent version available for download from my link, there are two macros labelled "ShowDialog_DONT_RUN_DIRECTLY" which builds and runs the GUI, and a "ShowDialogSync", which runs the other macro in the main application thread.

Suffice to say, this is just at the start of the GUI system, there is no reason you can't build a GUI that looks like the BMD version and works just as well, but with more features.

Take a look at the examples, if you need more help - give me a shout, and I'll do all I can to help you with your targets.

To all those wondering where the update I promised 2 weeks ago is, I'll try to push it up during the IBC lull in my other work. And I know it's hard work to use at the moment. If BMD ever let me concentrate on the system instead of hacking the API/SDK I'll really be able to release some good stuff, until then, JustMacros is a little bit of hard work to setup, but should be very reliable and stable once you've build decent scripts.

Regards

John

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Thomas, I also noted your

Thomas,

I also noted your post on this BMD thread (hate to post links away from Tom's forum - please come back after)

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=484&start=20

If there is sufficient call for this, it's a very easy job to add a VideoHub simulator to the Just Macros system (I use simulators for all my development, so it's mostly a drop-in). It would simple pretend to be a VideoHub of any size. You would assign macros to cross-points. So that when the Smart Control issued a Cross-point request, Just Macros would read that as a command to do something. I would expect you would simply set the Smart hub up to be routing to a single destination, and then each button press would correspond to a source. Thus one button press on a BMD panel could trigger one macro or JustMacros standard button function.

The problem would be the lights, but maybe workable, I haven't looked at Smart Control panel. It annoys me so much that BMD won't listen to me about router control systems, in fact I'm offended at what they offer, and when it comes to matrix routing, (especially lots of interconnect matrices), getting to know JustMacros now, will serve you well in the future (can't say any more than that at the moment).   

Let me know if you think there is large amount of demand for Smart Control input method, and I'll get it added to our roadmap.

Regards

John

thos-berlin's picture
Offline

Location

berlin
Germany
Joined: 19/06/2012
Posts: 238
Two different solutions

Hi John,

thank you for your reply. I am looking for two different things:

1.) A flexible computer based tool to control complex processes like switching in a virtual studio or scoreboards.

2.) A cheep hardware controller for my TVS to use without a complete PC (e.G: Arduino based).

For the second I hope BMD develops an extension for the videohub control, because the hardware seems suitable to do the job. It is an interesting idea, that JustMacros could work as a "translator" between videohub contol and ATEM, but for this I would prefer a PC-less solution ;-)

For the first, I see your macro-system to do this. JustMacros is a powerful tool and I enjoyed my first attempts to use it. I look forward to my next experiments and would be very happy about your expert support.

Thomas  S e e w a l d - thos-berlin (amateur)

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Thomas, I understand what you

Thomas,

I understand what you are saying, and I know many people of this forum and in the broadcast industry now feel that way.

I can only help by saying two things:

  • In any big live TV studio / gallery environment, the production chain is stuffed full of PCs doing broadcast critical tasks. So it is pretty standard practice to run routing and control systems through PCs. I'm not saying you are wrong to want a small footprint solution, just that the generic processing and power vs cost argument, has already been had and won, PCs are well and truely part of the broadcast environment.
  • We have talked a lot about making a 456 button panel out of 4x80 Xkeys, 1x68Xkeys+Joystick 1x68Xkeys+Jogwheel, 11 or 19 audio faders, a couple of HFX T-Bars, and a multi-touch touchscreen. Like Kaspar and others, it would be a self contained unit sitting on a desk with quite a small footprint. Inside would be a Mini-ATX PC with super fast <10 second boot SSD OS drive/configuration. Also with Decklink Card(s) (of some description). This would be far more like a traditional Grass valley surface (which I believe normally contains 2 PCs), and so able to be adapted easily by the TD. There is a lot of work to do get the software up to scratch, but we would probably contract an industrial designer Q1 2013 if we proceed, as we don't have those skills in house. We would need BMD to commit one way or the other on the 3rd party before making that kind of investment. I don't know if this would meet your PC less requirements? But will be much cheaper than the BMD options, with more buttons, and more functionality.

Always happy to help users using the FREE Just Macros, if you get stuck, post on one of the 3 threads, and I'll help all I can.

Regards

John

thos-berlin's picture
Offline

Location

berlin
Germany
Joined: 19/06/2012
Posts: 238
Quote: Always happy to help
Quote:

Always happy to help users using the FREE Just Macros, if you get stuck, post on one of the 3 threads, and I'll help all I can.

I am sure, I will have questions. So thank you for the offer ;-)

There is no mistrust in me against the PC and I know, that PCs works all over our daily live, visible or invisible. It is no question of the price. A PC running only the control software I get for less than € / $ 500,- and is more flexible, than a "simple switcher keyboard".

I feel better using big illuminated keys in a very small box  ;-)

Thomas  S e e w a l d - thos-berlin (amateur)

Offline

Location

Melbourne,
Australia
Joined: 07/09/2012
Posts: 8
Snapshot on ME2 Key not available

For some reason it isn't possible to take a snapshot of the M/E 2 Keys. The menu shows an empty field.

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Yeah, That is a mistake,

Yeah, That is a mistake, sorry about that, I'm using a 1ME at the moment, and so some 2ME items slipped by, I'm going to be releasing a new version as soon as I can, and I'll get this sorted for you asap.

 

Probably all upload by Monday. I'll certainly do my best.

 

Regards

 

John

 

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
Macros for TVS

Hi to all...
I will receive my Television Studio next week and i have a question about TVS and macros.
Can I use the macros with TVS in order to create a quad panel screen for my viewers
which every panel have source from a different camera?
I show a macro which creates something similar but i want an experts opinion if it is possible

Thank you

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
NO.   The TVS does cannot

NO.   The TVS does cannot support four cameras in PIP mode like that.  It's not a factor of macros... it simply does not have the capability.   Only the 2ME can do that.  

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
ATEM Macros

Thank you my friend...
Is there any other similar solution for showing more than 1 panel with the TVS???
Because the 2ME doesnt support hdmi inputs (i have already 4 new hdmi cameras)
any help accepted!!!

Thanks
Panos

Offline

Location

Marietta
United States
Joined: 23/05/2012
Posts: 93
I do not accept your reality.....

Sorry guys, i do not accept that TVS and 1ME will not do a 4 picture PiP. 

The below screen shot is from a 1280x720 stream that i am testing.  I will be happy to explain how i did this, but i dont really think an explanation is required. one hint: Re-entrant...

Caveats:
Quality: lower
Latency: Increased (probably 2x)
Labels, customizable in 1ME but may not be avoidable.  didnt test before screen shot
Colors red and green: could be avoided.

But all in all, i think it's pretty cool. 

Sorry to contribute to the hijacking of the Macros thread. 

BMD 1ME ATEM BMD TVS BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle (2) HPX170 (3) PDW-F350
www.GunDogFilms.com

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
Ok... so please do fill in

Ok... so please do fill in the gap.   How does the TVS - with no other gear involved - handle this 4-camera PIP effect?

(by the way.... I'm interested in this regardless of what additional gear is involved)

I got that you're using the Multiview Out and then cropping / scaling that somehow (which I can see how to do that on the 1ME - but not on the TVS)

EDIT (added the sentence above)

Offline

Location

Marietta
United States
Joined: 23/05/2012
Posts: 93
Touche' kind sir!
liamkennedy wrote:

Ok... so please do fill in the gap.   How does the TVS - with no other gear involved - handle this 4-camera PIP effect?

(by the way.... I'm interested in this regardless of what additional gear is involved) I got that you're using the Multiview Out and then cropping / scaling that somehow (which I can see how to do that on the 1ME - but not on the TVS) EDIT (added the sentence above)

BOO! I forgot that the TVS doesnt to DVE's... I own one, but used it only once before i bought the 1ME (Because the TVS would not do a PiP......) 
Sorry to cry wolf Liam!  but it can be done with the 1ME, it doesnt require the 2ME... 

On another note: 

Matrox does make a 4-in Quad viewer.  $995, out soon. 
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/microquad/
http://www.markertek.com/Interface-Solutions/Video-Interface/SDI-Interfa...

BMD 1ME ATEM BMD TVS BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle (2) HPX170 (3) PDW-F350
www.GunDogFilms.com

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
OK... Cool.  Wasn't trying to

OK... Cool.  Wasn't trying to trip you up or anything... just interested in your solution.

Yeah... I've seen info on that new Matrox Quad viewer.  Does look neat.   I maybe have an event coming up where such a unit would make sense.   Of course ideally I'd want all the inputs also coming to the TVS (or 1ME) and to that device (although you can full screen each of the individual inputs - I'd want to preview them on the multiview of the TVS)... so I think I would also need a Videohub router in the mix too... pushing up the costs to do this almost to that of getting a 2ME.    

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Have a look at Decimator Quad

Also worth considering Decimator Quad

http://www.decimator.com/Products/Decimator_Quad/Decimator_Quad.html

I really like, not just because it is an exciting red colour, not your usual Dull grey box. If you shop around you should be able to pickup for significantly less than a $1000(USD).

They also have am "MD" version with Audio Meters, UMD and Tally if you are looking to build a nice monitor stack.

http://www.decimator.com/Products/MD_Quad/MD_Quad.html

but.......I get the impression that BMD are going to do more with Multi-viewers, if they are smart and, know what they are doing (ok, maybe optimistic), they'll create plug-in modules for the Universal Video Hubs, although, until BMD start listening Decimator make great products, at good prices, with controls like, you might expect to find on a multi-viewer, for example UMDs that you can set to what you want (in versions after 2.7.2).

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
Neat product John.  $795 from

Neat product John.  $795 from Markertek.   It would be a natural product in the Black Magic world.   

Offline

Location

Sitka,
United States
Joined: 09/03/2012
Posts: 177
do I read the info correctly this is only sd output

Am I correct  that even though this takes a variety of HD inputs, it ONLY outputs SD??
Odd since most of these units take IN sd and output on large multiview HD image and so do you really need the MD quad 2 b1.3?? $1495

Sharyn

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
Yep... the cheaper one only

Yep... the cheaper one only has SDI inputs and only outputs to SDI and a downconverted SD Composite.  

Not exactly a problem as an input device to a TVS though.  

Offline

Location

Sitka,
United States
Joined: 09/03/2012
Posts: 177
Just to clarify, is the cheaper one HD sdi or SD

Just to make sure, is the cheaper on just SD sdi or HD sdi
I have not used a quad unit with my TVS but I do have variety of RGB spectrum units which all use PC resolutions, vs the more typcal quad units that simply use  TV resolutions and the difference is very obvious
Sharyn

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
I don't own one.. I'm just

I don't own one.. I'm just reading the specs like you are. From what I read this is hd-SDI AND sd composite.   

Offline

Location

Sitka,
United States
Joined: 09/03/2012
Posts: 177
John B might know

Maybe John B can comment
Sharyn

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
Zooming in on the brochure

Zooming in on the brochure the output does say SD SDI so I guess it does just down convert which is pretty useless then.  Looks like it would b best to wait for that other unit from Matrox

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Sorry guys, I've personally

Sorry guys, I've personally only used the MD version which is a little more pricey and supports loads of HD formats, I didn't realize the older one without UMD and Tally was only SD, sorry if that was a mislead.

They are a nice colour though....

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
Please come back to my problem...

Everything you write are so cool and I m learning a lot of new things !
But as i wrote before next week my TVS is coming and i need an
answer if there is a chance to have the quad split.
I have 4 hdmi cameras and the 2ME doesnt support them
So can you please explain how i will manage the quad split  like
TDinGeorgia have at the picture ?
Probably took the multiview output and redirect it as input and then ...... I dont understand
very well
In other case I have to cancel my order and try to find another solution!
I have a deep shit situation here and i am trying to cover, with a low cost solution,
a 2 day event with live streaming at the internet. I am not a processional producer and
all the equipment will be used only for a couple of days
If anybody has a solution .... i will be very grateful

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
airpanos,I think Liam

airpanos,

I think Liam already basically gave you the answer. and sadly that answer is No, you can't do a Quad with a TVS, as it has no Supersource, you can't do a quad with 1ME, as it only has 1DVE, and Macros is to automate the functions made available.

You could do what TDinGeorgia is doing, and feeding a external multi-viewer into your TVS, but you may have to hunt around to find an HDMI mutliviewer, I don't know of any, but am certain some must exist.

The best solution, in my opinion,  would be external renderer with a few HDMI input cards, and (VERY) careful motherboard selection. Or as Liam suggests, a VideoHub, a 2ME and your HDMI cameras connected to the video hub with HDMI->SDI convertors.

However, I'll throw this out there for a left-field, just using the TVS, solution.

If the TVS has 1 USKs and 2 DSKs, you could frame your camera shots so that the subject was where you wanted in in the multi-view, and then use a MASK on each keyer, to simulate a quad split by layering all your inputs. And, of course, JustMacros would help you set that up and return to normal with single button presses. Theoretically you could also do it using pattern keys, but I've not played with a TVS, and so am unsure of what is available.

Please let us know how you get on.

Regards

John

Offline

Location

Marietta
United States
Joined: 23/05/2012
Posts: 93
1.  I am using the 1ME

1.  I am using the 1ME swicher to accomplish my example.  Nothing else. 
2.  The 1ME will accept your 4 HDMI camera's. (if you decided to change equipment)
3.  Will the "Careful raming and Patern keying now work for his request? Maybe you should explain that again, in a positive light. 

~TDInGeorgia

BMD 1ME ATEM BMD TVS BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle (2) HPX170 (3) PDW-F350
www.GunDogFilms.com

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
TDinGeorgia, airpanos, For

TDinGeorgia, airpanos,

For more information on a 3 key solution for a quad view, see below.

However I can't say it's a good way of doing it, as you will need to be in very close contact with your camera operators, as the framing up of what you are displaying will be tricky, you'll also need "somewhere else to go(e.g. a 5th camera)", as you will need time to re-position the cameras when cutting from quad view to full screen.

But for a laugh:

Using the background for the top left, USK1 for top right, DSK1 Bottom Right and DSK bottom Left, things would look like this:

KeySetup

Detail

Looks like:

TX

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
Thank you

Thank you all for your time.
As i mentioned before because it is something that will be only 2 or 3 times in a year for 2 days everytime , its not worth to go with expensive solutions.For this reason i ordered the TVS and finally i thing I will cancel my order.
The project it has to do with taekwondo matches.
We will have every 2 months a 2 day event which we want to broadcast through live streaming. We try to keep the cost under
2000-3000$ and for this reason solutions with 2ME + hub + converters are too expensive.

Finally can you (JohnBengston) be a little more specific of your suggestion....
......"If the TVS has 1 USKs and 2 DSKs, you could frame your camera shots so that the subject was where you wanted in in the multi-view, and then use a MASK on each keyer, to simulate a quad split by layering all your inputs. And, of course, JustMacros would help you set that up and return to normal with single button presses."......

I check now you help ......I wrote the above text before your post
I promise that i will not bother you anymore after this......!!!!!   LOL

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Macros to instantly turn all

Macros to instantly turn all this on and off can be found here:

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/SetupOf3KeyQuad.zip

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
for JohnBengston

Nice solution!!
But also its very tricky as you said . If i understand well (correct me if i m wrong) , my camera operators have to focus the objects at top left, top right etc to succeed this. I m not sure that they can manage to do that during a taekwondo match.

Thank you anyway

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
This will do what you are

This will do what you are looking for - no other gear (other than cables / streaming computer / audio mixer with AES output) needed.

TVS = $945.25 
Decimator MD-QUAD = $1,425
AVUE HDMI-SDI converter (4) = $159 * 4 = $636
TOTAL = $3,006.25

Pretty darned close to your $3000 range.

But.....

Are you certain the HDMI cameras you have will be compatible with the TVS?  note: not all of them are!!

With all respect for your capabilities... do you have the skillset required to configure all of the equipment/streaming (it sounds like from your posts you have never done anything like this before)?

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Add 4 HDMI splitters to send

Add 4 HDMI splitters to send full frame to both HDMI->SDI->QUAD and the ATEM TVS, thus be able to cut nicely between full frame and Quad, and Liam's solution is pretty much perfect and just a little more expensive than; ditching the ATEM  and doing this job entirely within a renderer, not as flexible for monitoring and operational reasons, but technically more capable.

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
to Liam

Also nice solution !
About my skills.... You are correct!!. I am a software programmer and I have create from the scratch me and my partners all the sofware needed for organize those events. Since last year we broadcast with live streaming through livestream.com our first events because our clients asked to do that . At the first events we had only 3 firewire cameras through laptops and finally to 3 channels. Amateur in video and broadcasting we succeeded to have a nice result....
BUT this year we 've been asked to handle 4-5 matches and we dont know exactly what solution to follow as long our client dont want to spend a lot of money.
For this reason I'm asking for suggestions all over the forums. I am not willing to be a producer, just want to offer an acceptable result
About the compatibility of the cameras and TVS what specs to look for at the cameras??

And about your suggestion you mean to collect the 4 cameras through the MD-QUAD and then to feed the result to the TVS....etc???

Offline

Location

Pasadena
United States
Joined: 12/04/2012
Posts: 315
re: HDMI camera specs and MD-QUAD
airpanos wrote:

About the compatibility of the cameras and TVS what specs to look for at the cameras??

You have to make sure the cameras can be set to the exact same format/standard as the ATEM TVS is configured.   E.g. 1080i5994 or 720p5994.   Check your manual to be sure.

Quote:

And about your suggestion you mean to collect the 4 cameras through the MD-QUAD and then to feed the result to the TVS....etc???

I am not sure if you will have this Quad view on screen all the time - or if you will be switching to any/all of the cameras full screen.  The Quad view will allow you to switch so any one of the four inputs is then full screen.   However at that point you will be unable to preview any of the other cameras.  So I would recommend you do this.

The AVUE HDI-SDI converter has two SDI outputs.  Connect one SDI output to the Quad viewer.  Connect the other SDI output to a  TVS SDI input.    You will then always be able to see each camera on the Multiview output from the TVS.   Your Quad viewer would be connected to the TVS via it's HDMI output.    

Thus you would be using all four SDI inputs and one HDMI input.  You would then have just ONE HDMI input available for use to connect another computer for any sports data you would want to key over the video.

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
I'm with you, if you can

I'm with you, if you can avoid the BMD ATEM mixer, I say "do it". 

A powerful PC will easily ingest 4 or 5 HDMI streams, mix it together with internally generated graphics, and spitting out a QSV encoded H.264 stream, a PC costing around $1000 + interface cards, could do that without breaking a sweat. But.....I'd be worried about using 5 BMD Intensity cards in a single machine, with the correct motherboard it should be possible, but careful research required before building a 5 HD-Stream HDMI box!!!!!. 

You should also always remember the software tools availabl,e will almostly certainly not meet your needs without you doing significant development work, this costs money too.

Liam's solution is "plug and play", and will allow professional production workflows, i.e. you could bring in a team of production people, and they would sit down, and be ready to go in about 10 minutes. Training people on bespoke systems and workflows costs money too..

I'd recommend factoring these things into your calculations, especially if it's a project that is expanding and becoming more professional.

Anyway, good luck to you with your project.

Cheers

John

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
May the God help us!!!

Liam
I will draw this solution in a piece of paper and calculate also the cost if it is ok with my client I will go for it.

John
I dont want to load so many things to a single pc and I have already asked from another company to cover the full event
with live streaming and they asked me 4000€ for 2 days and my client ......@#$%%#@! 
If i dont manage to do anything with a profesional mixer  ... I will go with 5 cameras-5 laptop- 5 intensity shuttle's usb 3 and 5 channels at livestream.com

Anyway thank you all for your time and may the God help me!!!  LOL

The event will be next month so I have 1 month to figure out what solution I will follow.
At last I will  turn back here to present my solution and invite you all to watch the games through live streaming

Thanks again
Panos

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Liam's solution is a

Liam's solution is a no-brainer if you want an easy life. 

But........

If you are a developer, you shouldn't under-estimate the power of the latest generation of Intel CPUs.

Don't think laptop, think real-computer, with expansion slots. There should be no problem with 5 Intensity Pros PCIe cards in a single machine. Just make sure you get the correct motherboard, BMD suggest the limit for cards in a single machine is 8, and I've heard success stories of people doing that with 64 bit apps.

The Intel QSV encoder will encode HD much faster than real-time, even on a low-spec i5 you'll encode 1080i and still get  40fps encoded at 30Mb/s. The QSV, in my opinion, produces, by far and way, the best hardware based-H.264 results for the $.

Yesterday Intel talked about what is coming up in the Haswell core, or next generation (2013), they have added an additional pre-processor stage as well as support for 4K. 

The Intel Media SDK is perhaps well your investigation if you are looking to provide bespoke video solutions to customers, and you want to tweak the "standard practices" to save money. You'll only save the money with a compact and efficient solution, 5 laptops doesn't really provide that, in my opinon anyway. 

Cheers

John

Offline

Location

Thessaloniki
Greece
Joined: 11/09/2012
Posts: 8
Yes but...

I agree to all these but I have already 5 laptop on each terrain of the matches to keep the data and the scores so I want to use them further. But I will reconsider to built a nice desktop with Intensity cards to check the cost
And if i go with this solution ...what software can i use to get the quad view? or i will stream separately?
Also I will not broadcast hd because the dsl line which the stadium offer have limit to 5 mbps upload .
Many problems....Oh God what am i doing here I rather go fishing!!!

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
CasparCG will get you close,

CasparCG will get you close, but no cigar.......

I'd write (have written) systems that allows me to mix using the Windows 7 EVR with a custom presenter, that allows me to send the output of the EVR back out to HDSDI or to an encoder path. Eventually this will bleed into my Just Macros solution.

But... this is becoming a discussion for the Developer sub-forum,  I wouldn't use someone else's software with a custom built PC solution, if you are considering that, you have to go with Liam's hardware mixer solution.

And please beware the USB3 Laptop trap, not all USB3 on laptops is compatible with the USB3 Decklink stream you'll get from an Intensity Shuttle. You may think your USB3 solution is cheap, just to find you need to replace all your laptops.

I think you should start a new thread on the developer sub-forum, WHEN you choose to start to build a PC based mixer that could out-perform the ATEM range. I'll help you out all I can, but this thread is so far off where it started, I'm not going to respond again here. 

Good luck with your project.

John

Offline

Location

Sitka,
United States
Joined: 09/03/2012
Posts: 177
with all the fantastic development going on here

I was wondering if it would be feasible and possible to use a mouse with a wheel to select the various buttons on the ATEM software and without needing to move back to the t bar image, have the Wheel control the t bar when the ATEM App; is in focus ??

Sharyn

Offline

Location

leverkusen
Germany
Joined: 11/01/2012
Posts: 116
Hey John, yesterday I had a

Hey John,

yesterday I had a whole day time to check out your JustMacros app. It is really amazing. You can do almost everything with it if you take the time to write some custom macros. And in combination with Caspar CG it is amazing!

I just have two questions so far:

#1
Is it possible to assign a macro to a specific key? I mean - can I assign my macro to f.e. the F10 key? Or do I have to use a XKeys keyboard to be able to execute macros with just one keystroke?

#2
Is there any chance to display the remaining or eleapsed time of a clip or a playlist within JustMacros that Caspar CG is playing? I mean you could even "fake" this by just displaying the remining time of the clip lenght that you enter into the JustMacros script. It would be so helpful to know how long a specific clip is running. and how long it will run.

Cheers

james

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
James, Thanks for the kind

James,

Thanks for the kind words. 

I find myself once again apologizing to those who have taken the time to play with these early versions of JustMacros. I've been just so snowed under for around the last 4 weeks, I just haven't had time to address the many issues raised, and build a new FREE ATEM JustMacros Build.

All I can do is assure everyone I am more committed than ever to developing this system, work is constantly ongoing. The core of the system is now in use in 6 (mostly replacing) of our other systems, and I remain confident I'll get a new ATEM build out again very soon - maybe new video too.

I want to re-state, as I've done elsewhere, every single comment I have received will be addressed in the next version or coming in the one immediately afterwards. I try to not to ignore any post on the topic of Macros, and this time next year I hope the system will be awesome (and will still be completely free).

On your specific issues:

  1. No problem, Global key traps are being added for another purpose anyway, and I can make that available to you.
  2. Just Macros is not "currently" a GUI system, I have had some success doing custom GUIs from within JustMacros using a Lua plugin called IUP. I wrote a 10 minute document and put it on the JustMacros landing page that might help you if you want to implement a GUI with a Timecode-readout. It's not the right solution though.... In terms of CasparCG, I'm only 25% of the way through putting the CasparCG into JustMacros, there are still lots of missing bits and bobs, but the vast majority of updates coming for CasparCG will be adding high-level management routines that will help with things like playlist / running-order / run-down management.

http://www.vis-ranger.com/ATEM/

HOWEVER.........

The next version will include the beginnings of a thread-safe, multi-window, multi-client, GUI sub-system being developed (and looking great). This will solve some needs for iOS controllers, and some of the other issues being raised by ATEM users. 

Other roadmap changes for anyone tracking what I am saying, across the different threads:

We've down-graded MIDI for two reasons, (1) there is a lot to it to properly implement all the functions, (2) it looks like BMD are planning a MIDI-through-USB (re: comments regarding firmware 3.4 shown at IBC), direct interface. I think this raises questions over whether they plan to do their version of ATEM macros via MIDI sequencing. If they do this in 3.4, I want to look at what they add to my mixer before I build complementary features.

CasparCG, Vizrt, Grass Valley, Snell, and general purpose RS422/232 and IP ( FTP / TFTP / Telnet / etc..) communications (in terms of new command integration) have had their priority increased.

My 2ME R&D is postponed also in favor of more established product integration (i.e. Grass Valley).

This is not to say in anyway I am stepping away from BMD, we are just reflecting the fact, we are limited by them, and they are in no way helpful, we need to keep the development moving forward, hopefully soon, BMD will make it clear where they are going with the SDK and new ATEM features.

Cheers again James, hope there is enough here to keep you interested, and as soon as I can, I'll update the system which should help you out on these two problems.

Regards

john

Offline

Location

leverkusen
Germany
Joined: 11/01/2012
Posts: 116
John,thank you again for

John,

thank you again for your intensive and creative work here in the forum and for your time reading the whole stuff that we throw at you. ;)

Some development guys of Caspar CG told me that it should be possible to readout the runningtime of a clip by using the "INFO" command.

http://casparcg.com/wiki/CasparCG_2.0_AMCP_Protocol#INFO

Maybe this is something that would help you while evolving JustMacros. I think it is essential to have a time display of the current remaing clip time and the remaining playlist time. That is how all playout systems work.

I don't have enough coding skills so please forgive me if I'm asking you for something very difficult - but if Just Macros would open a window with two time displays (one for cuurent clip remaining time and one for remaining playlist time) that would be so awesome - because that is the only thing that prevents me from using Caspar CG as a playout device.

Cheers for now and please keep up the good work!

james

JohnBengston's picture
Offline

Location

London
United Kingdom
Joined: 14/01/2012
Posts: 1354
Playlists

James,

I don't see CasparCG INFO data being too difficult to provide back to the Macros system, it won't be a problem. What's more tricky is making that information meaningful.

I wonder if you would spend a little time describing how you see your "perfect playlist system" working?? As much detail as possible.

My experience is that media playlists often come from special tags inserted in run-downs from external systems like AVID iNews or AP's ENPS.

However, with ATEM and CasparCG, I think the likelihood of users having these (or similar) external systems is low. Thus I'm adding a kind of of simplified multi-renderer playlist system to my CasparCG encapsulation. As I said in my previous post this is something that is being worked on right now, so if readers like you, can share a bit of detail about how they work, I'll do my best to try to facilitate those requirements in my implementation.

Cheers

John